Thursday, May 21, 2009
Religion Gone Patholigical
Recently, a minor event has been happening in the archives of my blog. I've been trolled by people pretending to be Jesus freaks. Or, giving them the benefit of the doubt, actual Jesus freaks. Its hard to make a distinction between someone that in love with Jesus and some pretending to be in love Jesus. And don't even get me started on the freaks who are in love with Jesus, but really just want to get Mary alone for about 5 minutes.
Anyway, to best summarize the incident, in a way that will not bore you.
1.) There is a someone who works in my "High Technology" park that sports an "Evolution is a Lie." Bumper sticker.
2.) I find such a statement so ridiculous that I rant and rant, pointing out that people have in faith in something that can never be proven, but attempt to contradict some of the most strongly-forged and time-tested theories science has to offer. I point out that in a science-related field, I wouldn't trust their credibility for shit.
3.) Nothing happens because nobody reads this blog. (Hi, Mom!)
4.) 9 months later I'm getting hate-comments from Jesus freaks.
After phasing out anonymous comments and enabling moderation, the debate got civil. They prefer to believe in a life where there are supernatural beings. I do not. The two of us will not change our mind.
Once I clarified that my position in this statement is not "anti-religion" but "anti-anti-science", we found common ground. The Vatican acknowledges evolution. To deny what we know is truth in hopes of it making your faith more "correct" is not only stupid, its a failure of faith. It shouldn't need justification or proof for you to believe in it. That's why its called faith.
So today I stumbled on a rant from scienceblogs.com that discusses how "Religion Gone Pathological" is a problem. These are parents felt it was better to pray while their children died of cancer and diabetes. It is not that these parents are considered hateful or immoral -- they obviously loved their children very much, and were heartbroken by their loss -- but they are killers just the same. Willful ignorance brought about the death of their child. Juries found that a REASONABLE parent would've known something was wrong, and sought out a doctor.
Anyway, it makes my little hate screed look like Miss California doing her bikini walk. And since I didn't write it, it gives any internet defenders of religion a much bigger fish to fry if they're offended by it. Even I felt his "Damn you all" attitude (implying that religious moderates are enablers of religious extremists) was a bit too "far" to just publish online. At the same time I admire his gung-ho attitude. It takes a lot of courage to put your name and face out there next to a rant like that.
Anyway, to best summarize the incident, in a way that will not bore you.
1.) There is a someone who works in my "High Technology" park that sports an "Evolution is a Lie." Bumper sticker.
2.) I find such a statement so ridiculous that I rant and rant, pointing out that people have in faith in something that can never be proven, but attempt to contradict some of the most strongly-forged and time-tested theories science has to offer. I point out that in a science-related field, I wouldn't trust their credibility for shit.
3.) Nothing happens because nobody reads this blog. (Hi, Mom!)
4.) 9 months later I'm getting hate-comments from Jesus freaks.
After phasing out anonymous comments and enabling moderation, the debate got civil. They prefer to believe in a life where there are supernatural beings. I do not. The two of us will not change our mind.
Once I clarified that my position in this statement is not "anti-religion" but "anti-anti-science", we found common ground. The Vatican acknowledges evolution. To deny what we know is truth in hopes of it making your faith more "correct" is not only stupid, its a failure of faith. It shouldn't need justification or proof for you to believe in it. That's why its called faith.
So today I stumbled on a rant from scienceblogs.com that discusses how "Religion Gone Pathological" is a problem. These are parents felt it was better to pray while their children died of cancer and diabetes. It is not that these parents are considered hateful or immoral -- they obviously loved their children very much, and were heartbroken by their loss -- but they are killers just the same. Willful ignorance brought about the death of their child. Juries found that a REASONABLE parent would've known something was wrong, and sought out a doctor.
Anyway, it makes my little hate screed look like Miss California doing her bikini walk. And since I didn't write it, it gives any internet defenders of religion a much bigger fish to fry if they're offended by it. Even I felt his "Damn you all" attitude (implying that religious moderates are enablers of religious extremists) was a bit too "far" to just publish online. At the same time I admire his gung-ho attitude. It takes a lot of courage to put your name and face out there next to a rant like that.
Labels: crazy people, fuck conformity, kids, science
# posted by Chris Wilson : 1:11:00 PM
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I bet you can't stand that fact that despite all the advancements, rewards and lives saved by proven science, only a little over 10% of the world is atheist and does not associate with any god. Despite all of these proven and witnessed rewards science has brought into our lives, 90% of the near 7 BILLION people in the world choose to believe in following a faith that will bring a reward after death.
We came to the same page in the other post. Sure, no one changed any opinions and I am pretty sure neither of us expected to, but I did gain respect for your views and opinions and I thought that maybe you had gained some for mine. This post sorta forces me to question that... I have to agree with whoever that last person was who posted on your blog and say that it'd probably be beneficial if you, at the very least, respected the views of the 6 billion religious people that you share this (God-given?) planet with.
Respect works for everyone, regardless of personal beliefs.
We came to the same page in the other post. Sure, no one changed any opinions and I am pretty sure neither of us expected to, but I did gain respect for your views and opinions and I thought that maybe you had gained some for mine. This post sorta forces me to question that... I have to agree with whoever that last person was who posted on your blog and say that it'd probably be beneficial if you, at the very least, respected the views of the 6 billion religious people that you share this (God-given?) planet with.
Respect works for everyone, regardless of personal beliefs.
@Justin,
First, you're misquoting numbers: According to this study its more like 16% of the world does not have any spiritual preferences. But statistics on either side lie, as both like to claim fence-sitting agnostics.
Second, the argument you're using is called "social proof". It boils down to "if others are doing it, it must be okay". Remember how your mother (hypothetically speaking here, because we've never met, and I don't know your mother) used to say, "If everyone was jumping off a bridge, would you?". That's social proof. If you can prove to me why believing in the Christian god is any better than believing in the Norse god, in a way that doesn't make sense to you why I believe in neither, I would like to hear it.
And a point made here, in this blog, and in the linked scienceblog article is that if we as a society are allowed to speak out on such subjects like who should be allowed to marry, what is considered acceptable to teach our children, what is "offensive" to display on television or the radio airwaves,
then religion should be fair game and subject to criticism as much as any other topic.
For decades the "respect my beliefs" card has been played, and played. However, why should your religious beliefs be considered any more "sacred" a topic than "when life begins" or your legal beliefs?
While I've already conceded I think this guy goes too far, he is right. As juries have concluded, it was their action -- or inaction -- that killed their children. They were preventable deaths. Its even reasonable to believe that if they were better educated, by a public school system, they would've known to get help, even as their parents did nothing (but pray). That's the opinion of 12 citizens of this country. I highly doubt it was a jury of all atheists.
Lastly, respect didn't save the lives of Daniel Hauser and Madeline Neumann. And it says something when your own family members -- and people of your own faith -- testify to your actions.
I apparently have an audience of people with deep seated beliefs equal and opposite to mine. Or people pretending to do so for the "lulz". They obviously felt compelled to speak out, and equally, felt compelled to patiently listen. I found this article today on the internet over my lunch break. I thought I would share. I even stated I felt it went too far. But I'm merely passing on a link. Don't kill the messenger.
First, you're misquoting numbers: According to this study its more like 16% of the world does not have any spiritual preferences. But statistics on either side lie, as both like to claim fence-sitting agnostics.
Second, the argument you're using is called "social proof". It boils down to "if others are doing it, it must be okay". Remember how your mother (hypothetically speaking here, because we've never met, and I don't know your mother) used to say, "If everyone was jumping off a bridge, would you?". That's social proof. If you can prove to me why believing in the Christian god is any better than believing in the Norse god, in a way that doesn't make sense to you why I believe in neither, I would like to hear it.
And a point made here, in this blog, and in the linked scienceblog article is that if we as a society are allowed to speak out on such subjects like who should be allowed to marry, what is considered acceptable to teach our children, what is "offensive" to display on television or the radio airwaves,
then religion should be fair game and subject to criticism as much as any other topic.
For decades the "respect my beliefs" card has been played, and played. However, why should your religious beliefs be considered any more "sacred" a topic than "when life begins" or your legal beliefs?
While I've already conceded I think this guy goes too far, he is right. As juries have concluded, it was their action -- or inaction -- that killed their children. They were preventable deaths. Its even reasonable to believe that if they were better educated, by a public school system, they would've known to get help, even as their parents did nothing (but pray). That's the opinion of 12 citizens of this country. I highly doubt it was a jury of all atheists.
Lastly, respect didn't save the lives of Daniel Hauser and Madeline Neumann. And it says something when your own family members -- and people of your own faith -- testify to your actions.
I apparently have an audience of people with deep seated beliefs equal and opposite to mine. Or people pretending to do so for the "lulz". They obviously felt compelled to speak out, and equally, felt compelled to patiently listen. I found this article today on the internet over my lunch break. I thought I would share. I even stated I felt it went too far. But I'm merely passing on a link. Don't kill the messenger.
Chris,
I wasn't talking so much about the article. I agree with you as far as that case goes. While I obviously don't have any issues with parents/whomever praying for someone that is sick, etc, medical care should not be ignored. I don't think any sane Christian believes that his/her prayers are answered exactly as he/she expected them to be or in ways that they can understand.
What I was mostly talking about was strictly the first paragraph in your post. Labeling myself and those other commentors as "Jesus freaks". That's disrespectful no matter how you look at it. And the last sentence about Mary wasn't really needed either. That's why I commented on why respect should be given for other people's beliefs. Sure, this is your blog and you have every right to say what you want on it, but just because you can doesn't always mean you should, especially if you know that "an audience of people with deep seated beliefs equal and opposite to mine" will be reading. I wasn't, nor will I say that my beliefs should be respected more/less than any other beliefs. In my opinion, all beliefs should be respected equally. Think about how much better this world could be if everyone simply did that. That goes to all sides, too, atheists respecting christians, christians respecting muslims, etc. Of course, that's never going to happen, but it can't hurt to try.
Also, I wasn't really using social proof. I wasn't trying to say that because "x" amount of people follow this, you should too because you are in a minority. That would be absurd. As much as I believe my faith to be right (at least, right for me), I wouldn't want everyone to "convert". I know that a lot of Christian religions say that you have to be "this or that" and do "this or that" to be saved, but I don't believe that. I believe that God loves everyone equally, regardless of creed, but rather based on the life lived here on earth. By this way of thought, a righteous atheist has just as much opportunity to be saved than a righteous christian. Therefore, I don't believe it is necessary to follow the 80-90% of the population that follows some God (are you sure about that number?).
Again, it's all about respect for your fellow man. That belief should be shared by EVERYONE.
I wasn't talking so much about the article. I agree with you as far as that case goes. While I obviously don't have any issues with parents/whomever praying for someone that is sick, etc, medical care should not be ignored. I don't think any sane Christian believes that his/her prayers are answered exactly as he/she expected them to be or in ways that they can understand.
What I was mostly talking about was strictly the first paragraph in your post. Labeling myself and those other commentors as "Jesus freaks". That's disrespectful no matter how you look at it. And the last sentence about Mary wasn't really needed either. That's why I commented on why respect should be given for other people's beliefs. Sure, this is your blog and you have every right to say what you want on it, but just because you can doesn't always mean you should, especially if you know that "an audience of people with deep seated beliefs equal and opposite to mine" will be reading. I wasn't, nor will I say that my beliefs should be respected more/less than any other beliefs. In my opinion, all beliefs should be respected equally. Think about how much better this world could be if everyone simply did that. That goes to all sides, too, atheists respecting christians, christians respecting muslims, etc. Of course, that's never going to happen, but it can't hurt to try.
Also, I wasn't really using social proof. I wasn't trying to say that because "x" amount of people follow this, you should too because you are in a minority. That would be absurd. As much as I believe my faith to be right (at least, right for me), I wouldn't want everyone to "convert". I know that a lot of Christian religions say that you have to be "this or that" and do "this or that" to be saved, but I don't believe that. I believe that God loves everyone equally, regardless of creed, but rather based on the life lived here on earth. By this way of thought, a righteous atheist has just as much opportunity to be saved than a righteous christian. Therefore, I don't believe it is necessary to follow the 80-90% of the population that follows some God (are you sure about that number?).
Again, it's all about respect for your fellow man. That belief should be shared by EVERYONE.
Justin,
I've taken your words to heart. This reply has been percolating on the back burner for a while, but still doesn't come out right. It might come off as curt or blunt, but I'm honestly not trying to cop an attitude.
First, with respect to the whole "Jesus Freak" thing. I'm sorry it offended you. It should not offend you: I highly doubt any of you are offended by your love of Jesus. Or someone pointing out your love of Jesus. I feel the whole "arguing with a stranger over a religion" thing is best left to the bowels of the internet. There are people looking for those kind of flamewars, and I am not one of them. You can't/won't change the other parties mind. Its like berating someone on their parenting techniques in public. Jerry Springer, Dr. Phil, and Montel Williams have all tried and failed. What compelled you to try? Even I, who've come off as a "complete douchebag", to quote one idiot commenter, don't talk money, politics, or religion with people I just meet. Trust me when I say I have better sense than that.
In your defense, this is a public blog. Its basically a bumper sticker on the internet. So if I can rant about a bumper sticker, you can rant about this blog.
"Again, it's all about respect for your fellow man. That belief should be shared by EVERYONE."This is a laudable statement, that everyone can admire. Its also not practiced. In no way was my original rant, or this rant, disrespectful to you. Possibly offensive? Yes. But so is every two-bit comedian, tv writer, and average joe when it comes to giving their take on Religion. It may be a failing in that respect, that I am no different than anyone else in that area. But it is the world we live in.
And really, why should I respect my fellow man by default? As a secular Humanist, I belief in no supernatural being that will intervene or deliver us from our plight. It is up to us, and we're all in the struggle together. But I don't respect neo-nazis or pedophiles or corrupt politicians. With no intentional disrespect to you because you're a Roman Catholic, a recently retired Archbishop recently called athism/secularism the "greatest threat humanity has ever faced". He stopped short of advocating death to the non-believers.
But again, why should I respect this man? Its nice to know I'm more deadly than plague, nuclear war, radical extremist terrorism, climate change, Cobra (the GI Joe bad guys) and Hitler all rolled into one. But consider this: Even a supposedly devout, pious man, can start de-humanizing "the enemy", which is greatly acknowledged as the first step to demonizing (and eventually killing) your enemy. In the evolutionary struggle that our very civilization is a byproduct of, the nice guy finishes last.
Respect is patriotism in our modern American society. Everyone's ready to slap a magnet to the back of their car, but nobody's willing to actually transform their lifestyle. Its expected of you to be decent to people on a daily basis. You don't deserve a pat on the back for that. Respect comes from going the extra mile.
So I've lost track with where I'm going here. But I definitely think "all beliefs should be respected equally" is one of those wishy-washy ideas. Some ideas are simply absurd on their face, and shouldn't be worthy of respect. I won't elaborate, and I'm not specifically construing that to mean religion. But I've seen how "equal time" in the media has led to more people "doubting" evolution, rather than "studying" evolution. Maybe you can't respect my "pragmatism rules all" views, maybe they even offend you. But I'm still going to believe it, unless you can say something that breaks through my filter and gets me to think otherwise.
I've taken your words to heart. This reply has been percolating on the back burner for a while, but still doesn't come out right. It might come off as curt or blunt, but I'm honestly not trying to cop an attitude.
First, with respect to the whole "Jesus Freak" thing. I'm sorry it offended you. It should not offend you: I highly doubt any of you are offended by your love of Jesus. Or someone pointing out your love of Jesus. I feel the whole "arguing with a stranger over a religion" thing is best left to the bowels of the internet. There are people looking for those kind of flamewars, and I am not one of them. You can't/won't change the other parties mind. Its like berating someone on their parenting techniques in public. Jerry Springer, Dr. Phil, and Montel Williams have all tried and failed. What compelled you to try? Even I, who've come off as a "complete douchebag", to quote one idiot commenter, don't talk money, politics, or religion with people I just meet. Trust me when I say I have better sense than that.
In your defense, this is a public blog. Its basically a bumper sticker on the internet. So if I can rant about a bumper sticker, you can rant about this blog.
"Again, it's all about respect for your fellow man. That belief should be shared by EVERYONE."This is a laudable statement, that everyone can admire. Its also not practiced. In no way was my original rant, or this rant, disrespectful to you. Possibly offensive? Yes. But so is every two-bit comedian, tv writer, and average joe when it comes to giving their take on Religion. It may be a failing in that respect, that I am no different than anyone else in that area. But it is the world we live in.
And really, why should I respect my fellow man by default? As a secular Humanist, I belief in no supernatural being that will intervene or deliver us from our plight. It is up to us, and we're all in the struggle together. But I don't respect neo-nazis or pedophiles or corrupt politicians. With no intentional disrespect to you because you're a Roman Catholic, a recently retired Archbishop recently called athism/secularism the "greatest threat humanity has ever faced". He stopped short of advocating death to the non-believers.
But again, why should I respect this man? Its nice to know I'm more deadly than plague, nuclear war, radical extremist terrorism, climate change, Cobra (the GI Joe bad guys) and Hitler all rolled into one. But consider this: Even a supposedly devout, pious man, can start de-humanizing "the enemy", which is greatly acknowledged as the first step to demonizing (and eventually killing) your enemy. In the evolutionary struggle that our very civilization is a byproduct of, the nice guy finishes last.
Respect is patriotism in our modern American society. Everyone's ready to slap a magnet to the back of their car, but nobody's willing to actually transform their lifestyle. Its expected of you to be decent to people on a daily basis. You don't deserve a pat on the back for that. Respect comes from going the extra mile.
So I've lost track with where I'm going here. But I definitely think "all beliefs should be respected equally" is one of those wishy-washy ideas. Some ideas are simply absurd on their face, and shouldn't be worthy of respect. I won't elaborate, and I'm not specifically construing that to mean religion. But I've seen how "equal time" in the media has led to more people "doubting" evolution, rather than "studying" evolution. Maybe you can't respect my "pragmatism rules all" views, maybe they even offend you. But I'm still going to believe it, unless you can say something that breaks through my filter and gets me to think otherwise.
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